Packer - Was He A Witness? Part II
by Dave Yost
First published in Ripperologist, No 24, Aug 1999

Despite Packer's self-conflicting statements, it may yet be possible to determine a plausible set of events, based on the other incidents known to us, perhaps obtaining a more accurate idea of what Packer may or may not have witnessed in the process. The first question we should resolve is when was Packer at his shop? The Evening News article of 4 October informs us that 'For most of Saturday, 29 September, Packer was out with his barrow. But he didn't do much business and, "as the night came on wet", decided to go home and take his wife's place serving in the shop.' At around 11:00pm, John Gardner and J. Best saw Elizabeth with a young Englishman outside the Bricklayer's Arms in Settles Street. The couple was sheltering themselves from the rain while carrying on. So, we know it was raining at 11:00pm, but when did Packer head for home? The unofficial weather records for Whitechapel tell us there was approximately a quarter inch of rain for 29 September. The official weather records for the London area corroborate this amount, but more importantly they add, 'Sudden heavy R.[rain] at 9.5p.m.[sic] lasting till after midnight'. This is an hour and a half before Elizabeth and her man left Settles Street. Since Packer headed for home 'as the night came on wet', we can readily accept that he would have been home by no later than eleven o'clock.

Shortly after 11:00pm, Elizabeth and her man left the Bricklayers Arms, heading in the Berner Street direction via Commercial Road. From here, one of three things had to happen:

A) The couple turned onto Berner Street, heading south. It is approximately 800 yards from Settles Street & Commercial Road to Fairclough & Berner Streets. This would take approximately fourteen minutes to travel, and would place Elizabeth and her man at Packer's shop by c.11:15pm. At this point, the couple either continued past Packer's shop or they stopped and bought the grapes before doing so.

B) The couple turned south from Commercial Road onto Back Church Lane, then east onto Fairclough Street. With this route, Elizabeth and her man would have arrived at Packer's shop closer to 11:20pm. If we place a certain amount of truth on Packer's comment in the Evening News article that the couple came into Berner Street from the Ellen Street area, (realizing the potential influence from Marshall), then this would correspond more closely with this view. Then, again, they either headed south on Berner Street or bought the grapes prior doing so.

C) The couple not only turned onto Back Church Lane from Commercial Road, but continued, only turning east once south of Fairclough Street. This would place them near Marshall's house by c.11:30pm. They might have remained in that area talking, until Marshall saw them. It is also possible that they might have continued on, walked up Berner Street, arrived at Packer's at c.11:35pm, (which would also correspond to him supposedly seeing them coming from the Ellen Street area), then turned back, heading south, at which time Marshall saw them, (which would mean that they bought the grapes and left straight away). This latter view is possible, but not necessarily very probable, because it seems doubtful that Elizabeth and her man would have been criss-crossing Berner Street in such a fashion.

For either of the above three views, it would have been possible for them to have initially walked past Packer's shop, been seen by Marshall, then travelled northward, arriving back within the vicinity of Berner & Fairclough Streets shortly after midnight, and then bought the grapes at that time, (if at all), assuming Packer had not yet closed up shop; View "C" would seem to correspond more with this notion than would the others. We now have several possibilities for what might have happened and when: 1) Packer never saw them; 2) he merely saw a couple walk by at c.11:15pm-c.11:20pm; 3) he sold them grapes after 11:15pm; or, 4) he sold them grapes after midnight.

After 30 September, Packer describes for his interviewers, a man who supposedly bought grapes for Elizabeth. Unfortunately, his depictions vary enough that many might prefer to completely ignore them. Nevertheless, by reviewing Packer's various statements, we will note that a singular aspect stands out. He sustained consistency with respect to the man's general appearance (stood 5'-7", wore dark clothes, appeared to be a clerk, had a quick sharp way of speaking) while being irregular with his times and somewhat inconsistent with the man's age, (although still staying within the same general age group, approximately early- to mid-thirties). There seems to have been little outside influence on Packer with respect to the man's aforementioned general appearance, as there had been with the man sounding like an American, with Richardson's portrait, and possibly with the 'Yankee hat'. The foregoing seems to suggest that not only did Packer see the couple, but probably spoke to the man himself, and that those were the details he distinctly remembered, which would account for his consistency on those points.

The next question to consider is, Could the grapes have been bought after midnight? At c.12:35am, PC Smith noted that the man with Elizabeth had an 18"x6"-8" newspaper parcel. Yet, the Evening News article informs us that Packer placed the grapes in a bag. While the two items (parcel & bag) do not necessarily contradict or relate to each other, it is interesting to note the differences with respect to what this man might have been holding. Even though this could be another indication that the grapes were not bought after midnight, it must be pointed out that approximately one half hour separates the possible time from when Packer might have sold the grapes after midnight and when PC Smith saw the couple during his patrol of Berner Street. One point not previously mentioned regarding Packer with respect to PC Smith's description is that he never tried to incorporate the newspaper parcel described by PC Smith, which was published by the press on 1 October. This is a potential indication that Packer was not merely relating what he might have read in the papers and that he did not see this parcel. Another indication that Packer possibly did not sell the grapes after midnight is the club member, West. At c.12:15am, West, his brother, and Stanley left the club by the front door, went out into Berner Street, then headed toward Fairclough Street. Granted, the time for when West et al were out in the street (c.12:15am) is a potential difference of fifteen minutes from when Packer might have sold the grapes at around midnight and twenty minutes before PC Smith traveled through the area on patrol, but because neither mentioned the other (West & Packer), this is a possible indication that Packer's shop was probably already closed when these three left the club, which brings us to the final point to consider.

An interesting aspect of the many Packer statements is that he commonly noted that the couple was still in the vicinity while he closed up shop. This is in direct contradiction to what he informed Sgt White, during his first interview.

'I saw no one standing about neither did I see anyone go up the yard. I never saw anything suspicious or heard the slightest noise. And knew nothing about the murder until I heard of it this morning.'

Emphasizing that Packer was not influenced or biased at the time of Sgt White's interview, we can probably assume that his closing up shop while the couple was still there was a later embellishment on his part, and that he did close up after the couple moved on, as his reply to Sgt White indicates. Upon accepting this, then when Packer closed up must be looked into even further.

Packer informed Sgt White that he closed up at c.12:30am, and he related this action (closing up) in subsequent interviews with the closing of the pubs. Because Packer never referred to the many people who left the club at any of the times during which he claimed to be open, this suggests that he closed up shop prior this event. Hence, it seems he would have closed up at some point between before 11:30pm and midnight. Even though he told Sgt White that he heard no noise when he closed up, he could have easily heard the noise of the 60-80 people who exited the club, as he prepared for bed that morning. Packer might have associated this street noise with people leaving the pubs. While this poor judgment of time may seem strange, it is not unknown and is present in another part of the Stride case.

I think a similar view may be applied to Packer. He based his initial time (c.12:30am) for closing up off a mis-interpretation of what time it was. Packer quite naturally estimated the hour from an event which occurs daily at around the same time, (eg., how we ourselves, today, might discern the hour from when the nightly news comes on TV). In this case, Packer was not aware of the actual time and had assumed that the people in the street were pub goers, instead of club members, and guessed at the time. (This might possibly explain the "ease" in which he shifted his times from one interview to the next.)

Because of Marshall's evidence, we can possibly provide a closer approximation for when Packer closed up. Marshall saw Elizabeth and her man at 11:45pm. It would take approximately five minutes to walk from Packer's shop to no.58 Berner Street. Therefore, Packer could not have closed up any later than c.11:40pm and still miss the club members exiting the IWEC. (This would also indicate that even though the debate might have ended sooner than c.11:40pm, those members who left, did not do so until after c.11:40pm.) This might also be corroborated by Morris Eagle (one of the first people to see Elizabeth's body after Diemschutz discovered it). He chaired the club's debate that night and left afterwards by the street door to take his girlfriend home. If Packer actually saw Elizabeth and her man standing about the street when the debate ended, or after (as one of his interviews indicate), then Eagle might have recalled seeing Elizabeth in the area prior the discovery of her body, but such is not the case.

So what can we conclude from all of this? It has been discussed that Packer could have seen the couple, possibly spoke to the man, that he closed up before the end of the club's debate, and that Elizabeth and her man initially entered the area of Dutfield's Yard no sooner than between c.11:15pm and c.11:20pm. These views have narrowed down our possibilities, perhaps affording us with a better view of what could have occurred that night.

Elizabeth and her man left the Bricklayer's Arms shortly after 11:00pm. They walked down Commercial Road and turned south, where they are seen by Packer between c.11:15pm-c.11:20pm. Packer speaks to the man and possibly sells him the grapes. After they leave, Packer closes up shop no later than c.11:40pm. They are then seen by Marshall at 11:45pm.

It should also be mentioned that at the inquest of 5 October, Marshall stated, 'He [Elizabeth's man] had nothing in his hands I am aware of.' In accordance with the foregoing, this readily suggests that, if the grapes were indeed bought, then they were consumed before Elizabeth and her man were seen by Marshall, and the grape stalk was deposited somewhere between Dutfield's Yard and Marshall's house, (possibly at the Dutfield's Yard area, since they could have been there for at least twenty minutes before continuing south).

From all of Packer's interviews, the one which corresponds closest to the above idea is the one given at Scotland Yard.

The major differences between the previously given scenario and Packer's statement to Scotland Yard would be that he would have seen the couple between c.11:15pm and c.11:40pm. But, his observing the couple 'for about 1/2 an hour' still fits within this time frame; albeit, it seems more than likely that Packer closed up after Elizabeth and her man left the area. We can not necessarily trust Packer's reference to a 'Yankee hat' 100%, because of the potentially residual influence the Evening News reporter might have had on him from the night before when Packer was prompted to acknowledge that the man spoke as an American. Plus, it is interesting to note that this is the second reference given by Packer regarding the couple coming toward his shop from the 'lower end of the street' (ie., south to north) with the first time being mentioned in the Evening News article ('walked up Berner Street from the direction of Ellen Street'). At this point, it is not easy to ascertain if this portion of his tale was the result of him being led by the interviewer (like with the American accent) or him actually seeing this event, indicating that the couple did not immediately turn south onto Berner Street from Commercial Road, but continued on to Back Church Lane, then headed south and on over to Berner Street via Fairclough. (As previously mentioned, if the couple had initially walked past Fairclough Street, then turned east, then headed north on Berner Street going as far as Packer's shop, then they would have arrived there no sooner than c.11:35pm. and remained in that area no longer than approximately five minutes. But, as also previously discussed, the idea of them criss-crossing Berner Street in this fashion (south on Back Church Lane, north on Berner Street, south on Berner Street, then north again) seems very doubtful.))

Before concluding, it should be mentioned that two other greengrocers did business on Berner Street at the time: Edwin Sumner (#2) and Jacob Lubin (#74). So it is still possible that Packer did not sell the grapes, but one of these others did. Yet, there seems to be a lack of comment from them in the press, let alone any police enquiry into what they might have known. Because of the frustration Packer gave the police with his numerous statements to the newspapers, it would seem reasonable that the police might have at least contacted these men as a form of "corroboration" with respect to what Packer was stating. Ostensibly this was not the case, which seems to sustain the idea that if Elizabeth and her man had bought any grapes, then they did so from Packer.

So was Packer a witness? It would seem to be a possibility, but he only would have witnessed a man buying grapes for his woman. As for the elusive grape stalk, there is sufficient evidence to conclude that Elizabeth was not clutching it or that it was not readily near her body during the course of the exam that morning, but this does not preclude it from having been near the scene, since the stalk might have been tossed into the yard prior to Elizabeth and her man continuing south, toward Marshall's. If the stalk allegedly found by Batchelor and Grand did belong to Elizabeth and her man, then it helps to confirm that Packer did sell the grapes to them. Could there have been any potential value in Packer not only testifying at the inquest, but testifying accurately? Not really, since the grapes would have been bought about one and a half-hours prior Elizabeth's death. Even though a more accurate Packer statement aids us in better understanding the sequence of events, his actions have no bearing on Elizabeth's death, nor should this give any indication that her date was the murderer sought by the police.

One final comment on the foregoing argument is that it is based off the idea that the man seen by Best is the same man seen by Marshall and by PC Smith, realizing that some arguments exist which suggest the contrary.

References:
Scotland Yard files (MEPO 3/140)
G Bacon's New Ordance Map of London and its Suburbs, 1888, British Library, Map Library, London
Royal Meteorological Society weather records (St. Lukes), Meteorological Archives and Library, Bracknell, Berskire
Official weather records, (Camden Square), Meteorological Archives and Library, Bracknell, Berskire
Casebook: Jack the Ripper, web site founded and operated by Stephen P. Ryder
The Complete History of Jack the Ripper, Robinson Publishing Ltd, 1994, Sudgen
The Jack the Ripper A-Z, 2nd ed, Headline Book Publishing, 1994, Begg, Fido, Skinner
The Jack the Ripper: Uncensored Facts, Robson Books, 1995, Begg
average walking time of 500 yards in 8 to 9 minutes
private information from Stewart P. Evans
private information from A.M.P.